How easy is it for people to have a career in legal innovation these days? Do you think there are any entry barriers to being a legal technologist?
Jon:
I would say now it’s easier than ever. And in Rhys and myself you’ve probably got two very real examples of that. I’ve spent the first 15 years of my career as an employment lawyer. And whilst I’m still very much so, I have been able to work the transition into incorporating legal innovation/ops into my role. That is not say that the wearing of the two hats is easy, far from it, but the opportunity to be more than just an employment lawyer is very much there.
There is a lot made of non-traditional or squiggly career paths but really this is just about being able to embrace those areas where you want to develop and grow; its very much a platform for doing that and in areas that you might not immediately be able to do so within that more traditional lawyer context.
In terms of barriers I think confidence is the biggest issue. There is undoubtedly an element of the unknown in what we’re doing – particularly if you are transitioning from another role or its your first step into a law firm. I can understand how that might cause you to pause and check yourself. For however many years I may be qualified as a solicitor, in some ways its like going back to being newly qualified in some aspects of what I’m doing, albeit I do have perhaps a bit more experience in some other skills I can now fall back on.
Rhys:
Coming from a computer science background, I think it entirely depends upon how you limit yourself. My initial knowledge of the legal sector was novice at best, but I knew that the skills I’d picked up within software development could be a huge benefit to the role. I believe in dynamic roles such as ours, your ability to map your own unique skills to the environment becomes priceless, and keeping an open mind is never a bad thing.
In essence, I believe the ‘legal’ part of the legal tech sector isn’t necessarily set in stone. And there’s countless opportunities for individuals whose primary skills involve software, product, and solution development.
What skills have you developed in your legal ops role – any unexpected skills?
Jon:
Of course it has opened a whole new world technologically. I always had an interest in the tech but I guess that means things have got a bit more serious and so that has definitely stepped up. But my role isn’t really about just the tech. Its about making sure the right people are in the room and we are doing the right thing at the right time. For some of the tech that we’ve developed and sold, for example some of our SAAS products, there has been a much more pronounced sales-type role. That is markedly different from what is involved in pitching traditional legal services and so has involved a new skillset around sales.
In terms of unexpected, I’ve found a presence online, through LinkedIn. I’ve always had an account. But in the last 12 months I’ve found an audience and a place where I can develop and be part of an online community but also find my own voice and audience. That has been entirely different and unexpected.
Rhys:
I’ve mainly found that my skills within front end development have been drastically improved. I was always keen to design and make websites, so being able to further advance my skills whilst improving how our products look, has been really engaging for me.
However, my actual exploration of the various legal sectors has been more unexpected for me personally. Within the span of a year, I’ve learned so much about numerous topics with the help of some amazing legal professionals. So I’d say the ability to adapt and understand nuances within legal sphere has been most surprising for myself.
How do you approach challenges in your role, and can you give some examples of outcomes or lessons learned that might benefit others in the field?
Jon:
I think its very much about being willing to have a go and try something new. As I’ve mentioned it’s not always about the tech or knowing the ins and outs of something. There are clearly times when I definitely feel outside of the comfort zone or not really being all the way up to speed on exactly what it is that is being discussed. But that’s okay. I’m not always there to be the expert in the room or know the answer. Sometimes it might just be to drive an idea forward by asking questions or to offer an alternative perspective. Other times we will start on the path for one idea or problem but then find that it very quickly develops into something else and its about being able to pivot and adapt quickly as sometimes you need that natural development.
For example we have developed a disability tool that allows clients to work through the test for disability for themselves and make a determination on whether someone is likely to be disabled. The idea being that they can make the decision for themselves using an augmented decision-making tool, rather than having to revert to us for legal advice every time the issue arises. However, when discussing this tool with a client it became apparent that their need was actually a step further on and about the decision making involved in making reasonable adjustments for disabled employees. Therefore, we were able to take the original idea and develop and provide an alternative solution, not only for that client but also one that has a wider application.
Rhys:
I’d say the biggest hurdle in my role, as previously mentioned, has been the attempt to learn and understand the intricacies of the legal system, then to translate this new understanding into a functional product or solution. To anyone looking to expand into the field of legal-tech I’d recommend using your environment to your advantage, no matter your subject knowledge or experience. There’s always someone who’s an expert in a subject/technology, or someone who knows someone who’s an expert; so never being afraid to reach out and ask for guidance is invaluable in this role.
Can you share a recent example of a project or development in legal tech that has had a significant impact on how Weightmans handles employment law cases? How has this innovation influenced the firm’s approach or client outcomes?
Jon:
As I’ve mentioned we’ve developed a disability discrimination tool which we have successfully rolled out to clients. This ultimately will form part of a wider suite of employment tools. As part of that we have also developed a holiday pay calculator (as part of our holiday pay product offering) which helps calculate holiday pay liabilities for irregular hours workers. This followed a high profile decision which reaffirmed the law in that area. Doing so allowed us to again offer a tech-led, reliable solution to clients that they could, if they wished, utilise to help simplify holiday pay calculations and entitlements. It also meant that we could carry out calculations both at pace and also at volume for larger employers whilst not having to compromise on reliability or exceptional service or value.
Is generative AI an emerging trend in the legal tech industry that you find exciting and promising, or are you rather sceptical about it?
Jon:
I see it as something that could be exciting and useful, but only so far as it will augment and be a resource for what we already have. Every generation (of lawyers) thinks it’s the end of the world because of something new that is emerging or prophesised. Yet we’re still here. It might just be how we work or what we do will change. So it will be how we embrace that and how we utilise technologies such as generative AI to our advantages. I’m sure there will be some aspects of the role that will change, but that has always been the case. In my professional lifetime I’ve seen the move from paper files, to paper-lite to paperless. Nothing has fallen over and the world hasn’t ended. And I think most would agree we’re better for it. Ultimately for any fee earner, if its gives them back time in their day or makes what they do more efficient or easier it is going to be well received. It is likely to just be a question of how you take them along on that journey. So there may be a few lumps and bumps as we go on that journey as not everyone will be an early adopter or even the early majority but I do think in the whole it will be a good thing for us.
Rhys:
I think I wouldn’t be alone in saying the prospect of generative AI is both exciting and daunting at the same time. In the mist of potential of what AI can achieve, I believe it’s easy to get caught up in ‘what ifs’, and I have no doubt that similar ideas, worries, and imaginings have been drummed up throughout the history of technology. Inevitably, the success of an industry frequently depends on its ability to mould itself alongside groundbreaking tech such as generative AI, and the legal-tech sector is no different.
As a whole, it will be our job to make sure we have our finger on the pulse of such technologies, as our initial idea for what generative AI will be used for will inevitably prove to be incorrect.
What do you think the future of legal ops will hold?
Jon:
Of course it is an element of the unknown. There will be some good and some bad. Hopefully things won’t be developed for the sake of it. You tend to get a sense very early on if there is actually a problem to be solved and whether there is an opportunity to solve it or whether someone just wants to develop tech for tech’s sake. I’d also like to think there is an opportunity for legal ops to be part of that initial ground for lawyers. You absolutely need the diverse backgrounds of those in legal ops, like Rhys, but it would be really good if legal ops was just as fundamental a part of a trainee lawyers training and skill set as client care, advocacy and finance and business skills.
Rhys:
Speaking from a technological standpoint, I think the relationship between the legal sector and technology is becoming more and more intertwined. Innovations within technology will bring necessary legal concerns and challenges, whilst changes to the legal sector will call for innovative technologies to solve problems.
Jon Gregson
Rhys Davison